The Lawyer of the Week — Episode 38, Sydney, Australia
Interview Transcript
Pamela: Hi, my name is Pamela DeNeuve and welcome to Lawyer of the Week. Today I’m very pleased to introduce you to Edward “Ed” Andrew. And let me tell you a little bit about Edward. Edward is a serial entrepreneur, former English barrister and business consultant, and a career life trainer. Ed has founded businesses in Australia, the UK, India and Indonesia. He is a podcaster and does online training, seminars and workshops to help people manage and align their career and life. Ed currently lives in Sydney, Australia.
Hello, Ed. How are you today?
Edward: Hey, Pamela. Can I speak now?
Pamela: Yes, you can.
Edward: Thank you so much for having me on your show, Pamela.
Pamela: I’m very glad that you’re here and how’s the weather there where you are?
Edward: Well I’m looking out the window now at my country club, as I said and it’s a beautiful day. It’ll be in the- sort of in the low 80s I think today, so all is good.
Pamela: Wonderful. Glad to hear that. Well, I’m going to ask you the Lawyer of the Week questions and my first question is, when and what made you decide to become a lawyer? Actually, you are a barrister and what made you decide to leave law?
Edward: Well the first one is pretty simple. I suppose my parents would say I was always fairly argumentative. But I always liked debate and I think from a very early age- actually from about fifteen or sixteen- I wanted to study law but I particularly wanted to be a barrister. And in England, a barrister is really the equivalent of a US trial attorney. We do most of the court work but also, the sort of analogy is- probably not the same now- but it’s a bit like a GP and a specialist. So when you go to the doctor, you go and see your physician and if there’s something seriously wrong, he sends you to a specialist. A barrister is sort of like the specialist, whereas the solicitor is rather like…sort of like the GP. It’s probably not a great analogy now and I’m sure some people would be very unhappy with that but that’s sort of the way that the profession had evolved. So I always wanted to do that and I particularly wanted to go to the bar because I wanted- I was passionate about justice and I saw that you know, standing up in court and arguing a case, regardless of who it was for, was something that I was passionate about doing.
So that’s why I went. And why did I leave? I went to the bar at a time when- we do an apprenticeship called a “pupilage” and pupilages are unfunded, so the first six months of your working life you’re unable to earn any money. You’re actually not allowed to earn money. And the second six, you earn very little. And it generally takes a long time to get going, and what I really wanted to study or practice was two areas of law which interested me. One was public international law, which is disputed between governments and- imported disputes for governments and then private companies or intergovernmental disputes.
And the other was what is now called alternative dispute resolution or mediation. But in those days- and we’re talking 25 years ago- there was very little opportunity to do that type of work and I saw many of my friends in their corporate lives buying their first apartment, buying their first car, moving on. And you know, 25 percent of my fees were getting written off because no one paid them and you know, you’re scrapping around. I thought I want to be the very, very best in life at what I do and I can’t do that at the bar, so I decided to leave. And I had never considered doing anything else. I thought I would be like Lord Denning and retire at 92. You know, I’d never anticipated that I would do anything else, so that was a big change to step outside of law and find something else to do.
Pamela: Oh boy, that took a lot of courage and risk-taking to do that, I’m sure.
Edward: I think it just- all I had to do was look at my bank account. But also- that’s partially true- but I also felt that I was really passionate about justice and I saw a lot of say, what we would call Friday justice in the courts, where a trial would be coming to end and the lawyers wanted to go home, the judge wanted to go home, the jury wanted to go home. I mean, you never necessarily got the right result because people- other things were impacting on the sense of justice and I felt that also, some of the barristers I was working with just had lost their edge and lost their passion and it no longer resonated. So I loved it but it didn’t give me that sort of- that awe that I’d had before, so it was time to move on.
Pamela: Okay, alright. Well, that sounds really interesting. Can you describe some of the obstacles that you had to overcome to become successful, especially as a, as you call, a “serial entrepreneur”?
Edward: Two words that my wife doesn’t like at all. She thinks there’s too much ego attached to “entrepreneur”. Possibly. I always used to call myself a business owner, rather than entrepreneur, but it seems to be the thing to do these days. The obstacles are many. You know, they hit you every single day of your life as an entrepreneur. I think- and to put this into perspective, I did something which many people would never consider doing. I left England. I had my first business meeting in my first company the day after 9/11. So I bought an apartment in the center of London on a Friday to cater to the US tourist market coming into Knightsbridge and then 9/11 happened a few days later. And the day afterwards I had my first meeting at nine o’clock in the morning with the global head of the HR of Freshfields, the global magic circle law firm in London. No planes were flying over London because there had been a ban and we had this very surreal discussion as to, is everybody alive? And fortunately for that particular business, they were okay. Their employees survived.
But you know, if you think about the struggles that people in businesses go through, I don’t think there has been another such cataclysmic day in history, or in recent history, to be starting a new business. And I then got on a plane and went to Sydney, where I knew one person, to a new country and created what was- which became a very, very successful business but you have to have incredible self-belief in your ability to do that and to hustle and to be robust. And I think it’s a certain mindset that’s required to do that and I think that mindset, when I reflect back on all the businesses I’ve built- some brilliant and some others not- over the years, I think that that mindset is both productive and counterproductive. Because if you have this innate, inherent belief in your ability to do anything, sometimes it doesn’t go well.
Pamela: Yes.
Edward: We have to understand when to back off and back down and go down a different path.
Pamela: Right. Well now, you had international businesses all over. Was there- is there somewhere that you enjoyed having a business more or that was more exciting or challenging?
Edward: I think- look, the first business I had clients in over 36 locations around the world. We did a lot of work in the states, mainly in New York and so, a little bit in Washington, a little bit in LA, and that’s like- my grandparents are American, so I love being in the states. They’re from Philly. But the two countries which I have loved doing business in the most is in- I had a business in Delhi in India and that was a legal services business, hedonic business. I love that country. It’s got so much vitality, so much energy and there’s such an enormous willingness to just to get out and get something done. It has many different challenges, as well. And in the fashion and e-commerce business, we also did a lot of our production and manufacturing in India, so it’s a country I love. It’s got a special place in my heart. It is challenging.
And the other country I spent a long time in relatively was Indonesia, in Bali. I lived in Bali for a year and a half, running our fashion e-commerce business. And bringing our children up in an entirely different culture, which is with Hindus and Muslims and Christians and Buddhists, and seeing how they all work together in a country which, obviously English is not the first language was- and it was a beautiful experience. And I think that was great fun and a complete sense of freedom. I should also say that I’m very, very grateful for having been able to come to Australia and now I’m an Australian citizen, as well, and it’s been a very good country. And again, a country like America, full of freedom- to express yourself and to explore.
The greatest challenges probably existed in doing business in Indonesia. From a legal perspective, there are many challenges in the way that they, particularly if you’re in an import-export business, they change the rules in customs pretty much whenever they choose to and so, you can have goods impounded and when you’re running an import-export business, you can’t afford to have anything sitting on a dock or being confiscated, which does happen. And so, you have to be very street-aware as to how you operate a business or how you go about engaging with the local community because the visa I was on there allowed me to go and conduct business but not allowed to work. And so, you know, the work was in Australia. But we’re going to see factories every day, seeing how, you know, textiles are made, how they’re printed, how they’re put together.
To me, being a lawyer is incredibly creative. And that’s one of the things I’m also passionate about, is that I think lawyers are inherently very creative people but through the world of formal legal education, that creativity is suppressed very quickly, simply because it’s not- it has never being a skill which has been highly valued by law firms. Whereas now, with design thinking and creative thinking and critical thinking, everyone realizes that actually, these are skills which we really need in our businesses.
Pamela: Absolutely. Now, we encourage peak performance and for you to have had so many different business ventures, what would you say was your secret to peak performance?
Edward: I’m not sure if I even know. I think peak- let me put it in the context of peak performance meaning, how do we optimize our day, shall we say? So what I found is that I’m someone who needs a routine.
Pamela: Mm-hmm.
Edward: So what I do now is slightly different to what I used to do. But what I do now is that- before I do anything in the day, even before, you know, I get the kids up or with my wife- but before I turn my phone on or engage with any work, I go and do a short series of affirmations, mantras and meditation, which grounds me for my day before I get into the reactive state of dealing with work. So that’s the first, so routine’s very important. I also particularly then would exercise pretty much every day, very rigorously and it was a question of understanding your stress levels. Meditation helps with that enormously. Being physically- so very important to be very physically active and healthy, to have a good balanced diet, not to drink a lot of alcohol.
These things people think, well you know, it’s crazy stuff. We know this already but to be a peak performer, you need to be very well hydrated, you need to be physically fit and you need to be mentally fit, as well. And be in good health. If those things are aligned- and you also need to understand that being very successful at work, earning lots of money, and going home and being unhappy is not peak performance. You think it’s peak performance because you are performing in an office environment where everyone thinks you’re a leader. But if you are not happy with your lot outside of work or that work is the only thing that keeps you going from day to day, you are not performing at your peak.
Pamela: Absolutely, absolutely.
Edward: In my view, anyway.
Pamela: Okay. Well, that’s what we’re asking for- your view. So Ed, what advice would you give anyone struggling or facing difficulties reaching their goals?
Edward: Well, you know, that’s what I teach. So, we can do this. I’ve got about six hours of lectures on it.
Pamela: Okay.
Edward: I think the first thing to do is to identify, what is the reason why you’re struggling? And I think many people don’t have a good idea as to why they think they’re struggling but actually when they break it down and decode it, it’s something entirely different. So you know, if you are- to give an example- if you are struggling in your job and, you know, there is a degree of dislike for that or distaste or, you know, you’re not getting promoted, you have to work out- first of all, is it the job? Is it my industry? Is it my career? Or is it me? The chances are, it’s going to be all of them. Even if it’s a case of being repetitively passed over for promotion and you wonder, you know, why is this happening to me? Why is this happening? I’ve got the skill sets.
The two bits of advice I would give there and I’ll make it very specific is, one, you have to work out- if you’re getting an appraisal, does the appraisal tell you these are the skills you need to be promoted? Is your boss or your workforce able to provide those skills that you need to do? Are they going to pay for you to learn those skills? Are they going to support you in that environment? If they are and they do that and you’ve learned those skills and you still don’t get promoted, you’re entitled to ask, of course, why not? I’ve done everything you’ve asked to get a promotion. You still- you’re not putting me up. If they cannot answer that question for you reasonably and they’re still holding a carrot, you have a choice to say, thank you very much. I will take my skills somewhere else. Okay? And that’s a very important part of it- is your choice. If you’re not getting- if you’re getting passed over emotion because your boss is threatened by you and intimidated by you, they’re not going to tell you that generally but it’s something you’re going to be aware of.
Again, if you have all the skills that are necessary and it’s not happening, go and talk to someone else from the organization. Find someone who’s a supporter of you. Work out why it’s not happening. Have a dialogue. Have a very open honest conversation. I think employees are afraid of having open dialogue with their employers but they’re paying you to do a job. You’re giving your time and service to somebody else, right? You can leave. That is your choice. Now, there’s a whole- that opens up a whole different set of fears but we’ll take one at a time. So work out what the problem is. Is it you don’t like the industry, you don’t like the job, you don’t like your boss, or is it me? Is it the fact that I’ve never asked for that promotion or when I’ve been told go and learn these skills, I’m afraid to say, how do I do that? Or can you pay for that? Or maybe I’m not good enough to do that?
That’s fine if that’s the reasons. Well, we can help you get over those obstacles, as well. So first of all, find out what’s the underlying cause of that malaise or unhappiness? Is it something that’s going on in your personal life? If you’re taking that into work with you- because you can’t separate work and your private life. It’s impossible to do that and then when you do, it causes more trouble. So work out the reasons for that and always know there is someone out there to support you. So create a supportive, safe environment for you to go through a process of transformation which enables you to come out the other side. Find a coach, find a mentor, find someone you trust who will help you and don’t expect to do it overnight. When you change your default patterns, it takes- according to University [ ] London- at least 66 days. Some people it might take twenty, some people it might take a year. But the first thing you’ve got to do is take action. You’ve got to make the first step and say, I want to change because you’re the only person who will allow that change to happen.
Pamela: That’s really interesting. So you mentioned that you have courses- online courses- you want to tell us a little bit about them?
Edward: Yeah. I’m just finalizing writing them, Pamela. The first course is called- at the moment is called The Abundant Career and Life System. And what it enables people to do is address exactly the questions that you just asked, which is- it doesn’t matter whether you are at a crossroads in your professional life as to, you know, do I want to go and do something for myself? Do I still enjoy my life? Or actually, I’m very unhappy at work. I don’t know what to do. I’m being treated poorly. Or it may just be that actually, I do enjoy my work but I want to do something else. I realized that there’s a higher purpose to my life and understanding what actually that means. And the course- that first course- is my signature course and that takes 25 years of my business experience operating around the world. It takes six years- the last six years of my life- really understanding, getting to understand human behavior, psychology and neuroscience, why we do these things.
And one of the fundamental reasons why I went and did that is a) because I was curious but b) I- when I was 42, so six years ago, I got prostate cancer. An early diagnosis by fluke. And I got rid of it out of my body and I had to deal with that. And mentally, that’s very challenging for a man. Particularly a young- a reasonably young man. So I had to go and learn about myself. How do I deal with this? How do I change my mindset? How do I change my patterns? How do I live a life full of gratitude and compassion and empathy so that when things happen, you don’t react- or you react in a way which is much more calm. And we don’t- try not to judge. You try not to have any expectations of people. You understand what perception means so that you never put your- you don’t- trying to put yourself in someone else’s shoes is very difficult because how they think and feel is going to be very different.
It’s rather like if you went on a date and you had an expectation on that date that, you know, you’d have a lovely evening and the person you’re on a date with will ask you for a second date, and you may have some romance. And the other person just wants to have fun and have a great dinner. So it would be the perception- the expectation is that something’s going to happen but the other person doesn’t know that. It’s a very simple explanation. But also, your perception- you may say, well how could they possibly feel like that when I feel like this? Well, because that’s how they feel and that’s their feelings. That’s how they’re entitled to feel. The only way you can understand is to communicate with each other.
Pamela: Sure. Absolutely.
Edward: So the course goes into all of the skills that we need to learn to develop greater emotional intelligence. And one of the core skills is- so things we do is journaling, affirmations, visualizations. But also, the core skills are around preparing yourself to face any challenges and to really understand who you are and what you want and how you have the complete power to go and change that for yourself.
Pamela: That’s wonderful. Well, Ed, what kind of legacy do you want to leave? You have a very rich history. And so, how do you want to pull all that together and have a legacy for your life?
Edward: A legacy is a really interesting one, Pamela, because I’m not sure I’m a great believer in legacy.
Pamela: Okay, well that’s good. I’d like to hear about that.
Edward: In the sense that- there’s a favorite quote I have- which is a quote of the Dalai Lama- and it says, the primary purpose in life is to help others and if you can’t help them, don’t hurt them. That is really, I think, what my legacy is- to take all of my teachings and say to the world, look. We’re here for a finite period of time. Go and help people. Find whatever your mission is in life and your passions and your purpose. Try and help other people and try and leave our planet in a better place. If we can do that, we get progress. So that’s what I see by legacy. I don’t need statues of me or people to write books as to what I’ve done and haven’t done. If my teachings remain, that’s great. But when I’m gone, I’m dust, right? So I can only- I mean, yes you can make an impact when you’re no longer here, as many people have done, particularly artists and philosophers. And so maybe that’s legacy but I don’t need a legacy if you see what I mean.
Pamela: Yes, I do. I do. Absolutely. Well, our final Lawyer of the Week question, which we ask every one of our guests is, name one or two things that you do to relieve stress.
Edward: Oh, well, there you go. The first one I’ve talked about is meditation. So when I feel that I am in a place which is not great or I’m getting a little bit sort of anxious or antsy or frustrated, then I know that my body is vibrating. You can feel it, you know? The steam begins to build up. And I go and sit and I meditate and sometimes I’ll do that for an hour and a half. I just- and that really- that really grounds me. Or I just use simple deep breathing exercises. And also, not do the monkey brain but just say to myself, you know, just let this go. So try to be equa- is it equanimous? Which is, allow things to come and go without them reacting to you. Look, we can’t get through life- life throws us curveballs like me being ten minutes late because the clocks were changed this morning, trying to get ready. I can’t go meditate on that because I’ll completely miss the podcast.
Pamela: Where is Ed? He’s over there meditating for an hour and a half.
Edward: Yeah. Sorry, Pamela. I’m just going to go and meditate on that so I’m nice and calm when I come into it. But I also listen to meditations pretty much every night. And just things which are peaceful. I don’t watch TV. I rarely watch any news feeds at all. I might go on to CNN and BBC to see what’s going on in the world. But I don’t allow the outside world into my world. Well, I try not to, anyway.
Pamela: Yeah, I can see your zen face, you know?
Edward: Well, I’m looking at this beautiful scenario. I’m looking at this glorious golf course and lake at the moment and the sun’s out, so it’d be quite hard not to. Well, I’m sure some people may not be zenned out but it’s pretty good.
Pamela: Well Edward, I’m so glad that you made time in your busy schedule. I know you’ve got- you’re coming up with the course that’s going to be out soon. And, you know, perhaps we can, you know, coordinate our publishing with when it comes out. Perhaps that would be a great idea.
Edward: Fantastic. That would be brilliant. That’s very kind. Well you know, Pamela, it’s always a pleasure to talk to you. I love talking to you. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast. And as you know, if there’s anything I can ever do for you, just ask.
Pamela: Okay. Well, thank you so much.