The Lawyer of the Week — Episode 39, South Africa

Interview Transcript

PAMELA: Welcome to Lawyer of the Week. I am so pleased today that we have a group of dedicated women lawyers from South Africa. I know we have never had a group before but this is a very special group of women who are bright, who are very enthusiastic and I will tell you a little bit about why they are so enthusiastic and committed to their cause.

The “LSSA”, the Law Society of South Africa hosted a panel discussion on ‘achievable objectives for gender transformation in the legal profession’ during its 2016 AGM. The panel consisted of experienced women lawyers who are all leaders in their field. On June 9th, 2016 the LSSA Council members met with the panel of women lawyers to further discuss the objectives above and decide on a way forward.

The Women’s Task Team was officially established in late 2016 with Ms. Mimie Memka, as the Chairperson of this group. Dr. Jeannie-Mari Retief as Project Leader and the following key members: Nolitha Jali, Reshotketsoe Malefo, Denise Lenyai and Khanyi Gcilitshana. So I just did not say their names all correctly. So could you please introduce yourselves to our audience, starting with Jeanne-Mari.

JEANNE-MARI: Hi my name is Jeanne-Mari. I coordinate for the team and I am the founder and Director of Calibrics Innovative Legal Strategies.

DENISE: Hi my name is Mabaeng Denise Lenyai. I am a member of the Task Team and also a Councillor of the Law Society and I am also a Director at the Law Firm called Mabaeng Lenyai Attorneys.

PAMELA: Thank you.

KHANYI: My name is Nolukhanyiso. They call me Khanyi to shorten my long name, Gcilitshana. I am a practicing attorney with the Office of the State Attorney in the Northern Cape and I am a member of the team.

PAMELA: Thank you.

NOLITHA: I am Nolitha Jali, a practicing attorney at Legal Aid South Africa and I am a member of the Women’s task team.

PAMELA: Wonderful.

MIMIE: Hi there. My name is Mimie Memka. I am the Chairperson of the Law Society of South Africa’s Women’s task team. I am a practicing attorney. I run my own firm under the name M Memka Attorneys.

PAMELA: Thank you.

RESHOTKETSOE: Hi I am Reshotketsoe Malefo. I am a member of the team and I am a Director at Malefo Attorneys.

PAMELA: Wonderful. So we are so glad to have you all. Let me just continue to tell you a little bit about the team. The team produced a working document which set out the objectives for 2017. Tasks were assigned to each member of the group and progress on the objectives were communicated to the LSSA on a regular basis and discussed during the team’s regular meetings.

So they are from all over South Africa. So we are very pleased that they are here at one of their meetings and so we were able to interview them as a group. So we are just going to ask the Lawyer of the Week questions and the first question I am going to ask to Mimie Memka, the Chairperson, when and what made you decide to set up this Women’s task team.

MIMIE: Yes, as you have already indicated in your introduction, there was a conversation in the AGM of the Law Society of South Africa in 2016. Part of that conversation was to discuss challenges that are faced by women in the legal profession.

As a background, the legal profession in South Africa is very male-dominated. Gender transformation is going at a snail’s pace and that is predominantly because the leadership in the profession in South Africa is male-dominated. So as women we felt that we have to take it upon ourselves to try and change the landscape. We have to deal with the transformation ourselves and not leave it to other people. So we came together, we formed this team to discuss the challenges that women lawyers in South Africa face. And to identify just a few objectives per annum that we want to focus on to move us towards the direction that we were taking, that is towards trying to make a legal profession that is gender transformed. In particular, taking into account that the legal profession in South Africa has just gone through a change and there is a new Legal Practice Act that has come into effect. And the prescript of that Act or the preamble — one of the things in that preamble of the Act is to ensure that the legal profession must reflect the demographics of the country both in terms of race and gender.

So that is why we decided that we cannot leave our fate as women lawyers in other peoples’ hands, we have to take control and we have to do whatever it is that we need to do within our power to ensure that there is gender transformation in the legal profession.

PAMELA: Wonderful. Thank you, Mimie — that really explains why your enthusiasm and commitment is important. So Denise, can you describe for us the obstacles, women need to overcome to practice law in South Africa.

DENISE: Thank you, Pam, for that opportunity. The challenges that we as women face in the profession are vast. I will just mention a few. At entry level, after finishing our degrees, it is very difficult for female lawyers to enter the profession to get articles. So that is point number one. Point number two is that even if you are in the profession, there are perceptions that women attorneys are weak — are sensitive. So you do not get taken very seriously especially when issues of promotion come and also issues of remuneration for the fact that sometimes you are out of practice because you have to go and tend to your kids, children. When promotion is being discussed you are not taken very seriously because for part of your career you will be out of the office.

The other challenge is that when very serious matters or cases are being handed out, you get looked over because people think that you only need to do soft type of duties in the office. You do not get given real serious cases when you have to go either to the Constitutional Court or in the High Court. They do not think that you are strong enough to handle those type of cases.

The other thing is; when it comes to getting somebody who will mentor you to become the kind of attorney that you need to be, there may be opportunities and you always get left behind because they consider you to be able to do only the soft type of duties — taking notes at meetings and you cannot be the one leading. We also have a serious problem with sexual harassment, in that most of our attorneys leave the profession because of this challenge of sexual harassment. It is not very easy to talk about it. It is all hush — hush and people rather leave the profession than stay in it. Those are just some of the few and there is a lot and we can talk the whole day about it but I will leave some of it to my other committee members to tell you about some of them.

Thank you, Pam.

PAMELA: Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much, Denise. As you are saying that, I know that some of those issues are rampant really throughout the legal profession all over the world. But I do just what I have discovered in speaking with you and doing research about South Africa that the two issues of the gender equity and all the things that you spoke about as well as racial equity really make it double the more difficult for women lawyers especially of color and not of color but especially of color to advance their career in the legal profession. Would you say that is correct, Denise?

DENISE: That is correct. You know black female attorneys — if I can put it on a scale, it is normally the white males and then the black males and then the white female attorneys and then we as black female attorneys, we come right at the bottom. So we have to battle so many levels before you are taken very seriously. And the fact that you are an accomplished attorney becomes the last thing that people have to consider. For people to take you seriously, you have to perform 200 % and men 100%. You must perform at 200% before you are taken very seriously.

You have to break your back before people take you seriously which is very unfair because that is not what is expected of other people. Even when big organizations and even government give out briefs, we are the last people to be given briefs. Or if you are lucky enough to be given a brief, you must be supported by some male attorney from somewhere because nobody expects that you will be able to deliver a good product. It is very disheartening to many of us. That is why there are so few of us who are still left because most of us leave because really it is not very encouraging.

PAMELA: Right. If someone is even given an opportunity, which is rare, then they are forced under the patriarchal eye of senior lawyers or male lawyers and so that does not give you much of a chance. So let us go on to the next question. Reshotketsoe, can you tell us what is your team mission?

RESHOTKETSOE: Our mission basically is to see that transformation — women get uplifted in all key areas. Women get transformed because there is lack of that across the board — in our judiciary and in our legal representatives and in our corporates. So we would like to see that the women in this field get uplifted to the key positions that are necessary to make us progress in life and be able to be one of the run of the mill women who motivate others and see that things are happening. Not only to be seen as women, who like the Chairperson has said, being secretaries even though you have achieved the same qualities and the same experience as your male counterparts.

Now if we see that the women get recognized and are given the opportunities that they deserve and because we work even harder we have challenges that we face which are more than what men face in this world. And we do our best to be right there with them and be recognized for those things that we do then we believe that the mission might be accomplished. And even those that do suffer in the profession as they come along we pick them up and bring them up to par where we are then we might ensure that the mission has been dealt with as we wish it to be.

PAMELA: Yes. When I read statistics, I do not know if these are still the same, Reshotketsoe, that there are more women attorney graduates in South Africa than men.

RESHOTKETSOE: Yes, there are. The situation is still the same. The statistics show that women graduates are more than male counterparts. But then those that do get into the system and remain in the profession are much, much lesser than the graduates as they come out of the varsities. There are different levels that one has to go through as a student. You have to become a candidate attorney and admitted as an attorney. But after you have been through all this, that is where you recognize that a lot less women have become attorneys. Even a lot remain in the profession because of all the difficulties that women face in the profession.

PAMELA: Is it safe to say that there is a shortage of women lawyers specifically women lawyers of color in South Africa?

RESHOTKETSOE: Yes, it is safe to say so. It is safe to say so because those that went to varsity, as the bottleneck becomes even smaller for them to come out of that route and become flourished female attorneys. The opportunities become lesser for women of color, as Denise has explained, that there are less women of color in the profession. There are more difficulties which I think my colleagues will have to explain later on in some of the answers that we give.

PAMELA: Thank you. My next question is for Jeanne-Mari Retief. You put a lot of emphasis on achievable objectives but how does this make you different from other committees and teams championing gender advancement?

JEANNE-MARI: I think for us when we started this team, we said that we did not want to be another committee that came together and discuss challenges and issues and then we all went our separate ways. We wanted something practical to come out of this. So we wanted to be able to get together, identify these achievable objectives and then towards the end of every year, sit down and say okay, what have we achieved, to what degree and how has that been successful or not.

And I think all of our initiatives are run with that objective in mind: can we achieve this and how are we going to practically achieve it? And this is where actually the whole team plays a part because team duties are handed to each member of the team and we all work together to make it work. So it is not just another committee that talks about challenges. We really do focus on trying to practically change things. Even though it may be at a slow pace, we still feel like we are making a significant contribution hopefully.

PAMELA: Okay. So that is really important I think because there is a lot of talk as I said, I see it all over the world that there is a lot of talk about it but I think the key word is ‘achievable goals’ that even though they may not be broad strokes there is something that you can really accomplish. And it sounds like you have a support system with each other. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that, Jeanne Mari? How do you support each other?

JEANNE-MARI: I think we just come together and do the best that we can as women lawyers in the profession. I think one of the key things for me that actually stands out actually in the last week considering things that have been going on in the legal profession itself is this atmosphere of inclusiveness that we have in the team. We really do support each other and we support our goals and our objectives even though we serve on other committees and in other fields of the law, we still try to get together and put those objectives together to reach a common goal. But I would also like to hear the opinions of the rest of the team on this question if that is okay?

PAMELA: Yes.

NOLITHA: Yes, Pamela. It is Nolitha.

PAMELA: Yes.

NOLITHA: Like Jeanne Marie said, when we started we knew our schedules, we knew our other commitments and we decided we want to do something and make a difference. In order for us to achieve what we wanted to achieve, we said let us do it one step at a time. Let us do one program, see it to fruition and then take on the next program. That was the whole idea.

PAMELA: That is great.

RESHOTKETSOE: And as Nolitha said, I think that is where we come with the word ‘achievable’ because we do not want to take on a lot of things which we cannot achieve. That is why we rather take on one thing and see the progression of that thing and when it has come to fruition, we take on the next one.

PAMELA: Wonderful.

MIMIE: If I may have a word, for example just to make a point that we are not talking about a pie in the sky. We have started a mentorship program where we are looking at mature female practitioners to mentor the younger practitioners that are coming into the legal profession in terms of content of the law, but also in terms of running your own practice. Because most of us are practitioners running our own firms, be it small or middle size so we want to ensure that the younger generation of female practitioners coming into the legal profession have a support system and that they are not left by themselves and feel isolated, as we did when we entered the profession.

That when they come into a better environment, as black women lawyers like we did when we entered the profession, and also to give them access to the profession. Access in terms of ensuring that they get articles of clerkship because, in order for you to eventually become an attorney in South Africa, you have to do what other people call apprenticeship. In the legal profession, we call it articles of clerkship and it is very difficult for young black females who have graduated to get articles. So through SASSETA, which is a services SETA that we have in South Africa, we have managed to get some young graduates into articles of clerkship so that they are able to do their apprenticeship for the two years and then they will be able to write their board examinations and qualify. So step by step, we see what is it that is causing bottlenecks in the system and we address issues one at a time.

PAMELA: That is wonderful.

MIMIE: I think Khanyi can make a contribution, as well.

KHANYI: Yes, Pam. Most importantly, I think is to have something tangible that contributes to the development and upliftment of women in whatever way that we can. It is not just about us meeting and talking about issues of women. Let us identify the issue and see what can be done about it and let us do something about it. If we need to involve other parties, let’s involve like in your case, the kind of relationship that we now have with you it is one of those that we have thought that it will benefit us talking to you and hearing what other people are doing and where they are doing it and how we can do what we are trying to do in South Africa.

Perhaps you can assist us to do what we would like to do in the legal profession for women in South Africa. So it is more about doing something about it more than talking about it. As you can see, the group is small and I think that was the intention to keep it as small as possible so that you are able to have deliverables and you are able to talk to a smaller group and have them drive certain programs. We do not necessarily do the programs ourselves, as I am saying, but we identify what needs to be done and we see to it that it gets done. Thank you.

PAMELA: Okay. That’s really great.

DENISE: Just to add to what Khanyi is saying. A practical example of what we have recently achieved. We have got what is called the Attorney’s Development Fund here in South Africa, which is a Fund that assists new law firms to set up their systems and they have got all collaborations with lots of companies to assist up and coming young firms. But we, as the women’s task team, we have taken it a step further. In South Africa there is a course that one has to take that is called the Practice Management Training course. You cannot open your own law firm without this course but it is pricey. And most of us, especially coming from disadvantaged backgrounds, we do not necessarily have the funds to go and register for this course.

So through our chairperson and Jeanne-Mari, we managed to have a memorandum of understanding with the Attorney’s Development Fund to pay for these women. It is sort of an interest-free loan. They pay for you to go there and as you are working, you pay them back over a period of a year. So it is not cumbersome on the new firm to pay back but it is made possible so that most of us, especially the females, we can then go there, get this course and then we are able to open our law firms and then in that way, we can then absorb the young candidate attorneys and young female attorneys into our law firms. So that all the challenges that we spoke about, we can then try and circumvent them and be practical about them instead of just talking we are seen to be doing — we actually walk the talk basically. Thank you.

PAMELA: That is really wonderful and it is really nice to hear from so many of you how you are able to achieve the goals and how you are able to be accountable and do small things like that to help women start their firms. It is like the difference between whether they can practice law or not. So those are really great things to hear about. So given that, Nolitha, what advice do you have for anyone who is struggling or facing difficulties reaching their goals?

NOLITHA: The advice I would give is that the first step in anyone’s life is to set goals for yourself. It is not an error to set goals and it is not an error to set big goals for yourself. What one needs to do as you move on as time goes maybe after six months, after a year, you need to re-evaluate and check whether you have achieved your goals, what are the obstacles that made you not to achieve your goals and to reassess your position and find ways of achieving your goals. So my thing is that once you have set your goals, do not give up. There would be obstacles on the way. You will have challenges but re-evaluate, reassess your situation and move on.

PAMELA: Would you be willing to share just about some of the difficulties that you had just in becoming a lawyer yourself? How you set the goals?

NOLITHA: Finding an office to do articles was one of the first challenges that I had. I ended up going to assist at a nearby magistrates’ office.

PAMELA: I see. Okay.

NOLITHA: Volunteering as a prosecutor, when in actual fact, I wanted to be an attorney. But I volunteered because I wanted to keep in touch and not lose on roll. And whilst I was assisting in the magistrates’ court, someone came, someone whom I was at school with, saw me there and he referred me to a law firm and that is how I got to do my articles. So I did not give up on what I wanted to do. Another advice that I would give to a young person is, once you want to move in, get yourself a mentor. Someone who will take you along in achieving your goals.

PAMELA: Yes. We cannot do it alone. We need support and that is why it is so great that you all have set that achievable goal of a mentorship because that is the foundation of helping others to achieve their goals. Khanyi, as committed members of this team, what legacy would you like to leave?

KHANYI: There is a lot. But I think above all for me it would be to see, I would use the term loosely to say gender equity, gender equality. But basically, that would be a transformation of the thinking in the profession generally, a transformation in the thinking amongst females themselves, a transformation in the thinking amongst men in the profession. For me, that would be the greatest achievement that this committee and the greatest legacy that we would ever leave behind. A society of a profession that is able to think broadly, especially on the issue of gender equality.

JEANNE-MARI: Pamela, our Chair has something to add, I think.

MIMIE: No. I just wanted to add that as this Committee, one of the other legacies, just that it is many, one of the other legacies that we would like to have as this group is that we opened the way for the younger generation that comes after us and that they find it easier to get access into the profession than we did. And they are encouraged to remain within the profession because the environment in which they will enter at that particular point would have changed. And they won’t have to face the same challenges that we have had to face, that we are dealing with currently. That when they come in, they come in and face different challenges, in that the landscape of the legal profession in South Africa must change. And our children must find it a level playing field for everyone irrespective of their gender, irrespective of their color and that color should not determine whether you succeed as a lawyer or not.

PAMELA: Well that is saying a lot. When you are looking towards the next generation, that is such a selfless and loving and caring for people that are coming behind you and trying to make the road easier for them in the legal profession. And if you do not do it, who is going to do it? If you do not do it, no one is going to do it. So you are doing it with achievable goals and it is so admirable. I have so much respect for each of you.

We have one question that we ask every Lawyer of the Week because here in the United States, one of the big things is lawyer well-being. Lawyers work- especially women, take care of your family, you take care of everybody but yourselves and so we want to know — name one thing you do to manage your stress. So the whole team, if you could think of one thing that you do to help you to not drop from exhaustion. What do you do?

RESHOTKETSOE: I talk about the things that happen to me and besides talking to my fellow lawyers, I also talk to my maker. I pray a lot and taking time to relax and drink a lot of chamomile tea.

PAMELA: That is good.

MIMIE: For me, I get involved in other activities that have nothing to do with law. You know you get involved in community activities. You get involved in other organizations that advance other people’s — a friend of mine and myself we approached an NPO, non-profit organization called The Voice of the Needy and what we do there is we give free legal advice on Saturdays to people, mostly foreign nationals who are in our country. We give them free legal advice and we tell them where to go when they have certain needs or issues, i.e. if they want to apply for grants. That to me is my way of de-stressing. I help other people with the knowledge that I have in law, but not necessarily practicing law.

PAMELA: Wonderful. Thank you.

NOLITHA: As for me, I exercise, and I pray. That is how I relieve my stress.

KHANYI: Pam, there is a lot that I do. I lounge in front of the television and I park there for the whole weekend sometimes. I exercise. I cook. I like cooking and baking and doing those things. Like Mimie, I am involved in other things — church activities, community activities. I have SAWLA as part of my de-stressing so when I want to get out of my work, I go into SAWLA and see what needs to be done there. So there is a lot that I do.

Unfortunately, I do not drink and I do not smoke. Maybe I should try those creative ways. I do not know if they will help. When my kids were still around, it was another way of de-stressing because they would take me to movies and to all sorts of things that they were interested in. They would keep me busy with picking them up and dropping them off. In Kimberley, we have the kripviers — it is like your games put together and people come with stalls and there is food sold and there are people that come and display the product that they sell. My kids loved to go there. So we would go there and I would manage to go on all the rides. There is a lot of ways that I use to try and de-stress.

PAMELA: Wonderful.

DENISE: For me, Pamela, it is exercising. I travel a lot. I watch movies a lot, where I do not have to use my mind I just watch. And also at church. I find that I give free advice on several topics. The Minister will say this week let us talk about estates, let us talk about property or whatever just after church for 30 minutes. Those are the things that help to de-stress me. What I like about that is that you are giving yourself without expecting any payment. I think it is the greatest role.

PAMELA: Wonderful. Jeanne-Mari — the new baby.

KHANYI: I do not see the baby. She promised to bring her.

JEANNE-MARI: I am so sorry. I will bring her next time, though. It is still new to me, so I think I am still enjoying that path but then also my great love which is my other baby. It is my guitars. I play guitar and anything with regards to music.

PAMELA: Great. Are you still able to do it with the baby now?

JEANNE-MARI: Actually, more-so, because she really likes it when I play and sing to her.

PAMELA: Who was it that was going to buy a bike or who was going to ride a bike? Who is that? When we did the six weeks, someone was going to get a bike?

KHANYI: It is me.

PAMELA: I got a bike.

KHANYI: I am going to get mine.

PAMELA: So I have been riding my bike.

KHANYI: Next week I will have my bike.

PAMELA: Okay, you were going to buy a bike a year ago. So you have got to buy a bike now. Okay, thank you, ladies, so much. I am just so moved by your selflessness and your commitment and your achievement- each one of you, to just become a lawyer in South Africa and in spite of the odds and then you all have taken on leadership roles and you contribute to others and you thinking not about yourselves.

You are looking at how you can help those who are coming behind you. And you are taking your time to do this and I am just — I think anyone who sees this Lawyer of the Week will know what outstanding individuals you are and what shining lights you are in South Africa and I am sure that your legacy will, little by little, things will change and I know that each of you is someone who does not give up and you do not give up and you just keep going forward and you keep pulling together. So I am just so glad that we had this time together and I am so glad that you were able to share your voice with the world outside of South Africa, as well as in South Africa.

So thank you so much for being our guests on Lawyer of the Week.